Ep 128: Using the Enneagram to Understand Yourself with Wendy Montgomery

The key to becoming your favorite version of you is often not just changing habits, but understanding the deeper motivation behind why you do what you do. The Enneagram is a powerful tool that identifies nine core personality types, each with its own motivations and fears that shape our thoughts and relationships.

Today, I’m joined by Professional Certified Life Coach Wendy Montgomery to explore how the Enneagram can identify roadblocks that may be keeping you stuck, and help you understand the changes that will help you break out of that cycle.

When you understand your Enneagram type, you gain the self-awareness that will help you uncover the patterns behind your behaviors and the motivations that drive them–something that is essential when you’re on a journey of transformation. But beyond identifying challenges, the Enneagram also helps you recognize the parts of you that are already amazing and strengthen your self-love and compassion.

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Transcript

Hey, this is Melissa Parsons, and you are listening to the Your Favorite You Podcast. I'm a certified life coach with an advanced certification in deep dive coaching. The purpose of this podcast is to help brilliant women like you with beautiful brains create the life you've been dreaming of with intentions. My goal is to help you find your favorite version of you by teaching you how to treat yourself as your own best friend.

If this sounds incredible to you and you want practical tips on changing up how you treat yourself, then you're in the right place. Just so you know, I'm a huge fan of using all of the words available to me in the English language, so please proceed with caution if young ears are around.

Melissa 

Hello Your Favorite You listeners. I am so excited to share our guest today with you. We are joined today by a woman who apparently wears many hats in her life and today we're going to be discussing her expertise in the Enneagram. I first learned about the Enneagram way back in the way back of September 2024, so six months ago, and I devoured everything I could find when I first discovered it and I was hooked. I talked to my friend Sara who's another coach about my newfound love and she told me that I had to meet our guest today. So welcome to the podcast, Wendy Montgomery. 

Wendy 

Hi, thanks for having me, I'm so happy to be here. 

Melissa 

Yeah, you're so welcome. So by way of introduction, I'm going to do the uncomfortable thing and read your bio to you as a way to introduce you to my audience if that's okay with you. And then I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself in an interesting way. So just be ready for that.

So Wendy is a professional certified life coach. She and I trained at the same school, the life coach school together while we weren't together probably at different times. She is also trained and accredited through the IEQ-9 Enneagram Master Educator and Coach. That doesn't sound right. 

Wendy 

Well, that's what my title is. I don't know why it's so wordy and long, but anyway…

Melissa 

No, I love it. I love it. She's been studying the Enneagram for over a decade and is endlessly fascinated with its depth, accuracy, and what it tells us about who we are and why we do what we do. It's been a game changer for her in her relationships, parenting, in professional settings, and self-development. Wendy can tell you just about everything there is to know about the Enneagram and how to implement it in your life for deep and lasting change. And she's found no greater tool better in understanding herself and others. I also want to share that Wendy is a wife and a mama of five amazing humans, four of which identify as LGBTQIA+. And she and her hubby Tom have been married for over 30 years. And they have been very vocal national advocates for inclusion and equality for the LGBTQIA+ community for over 12 years. It's probably even longer than that now. And her family was actually the recipient of several awards for their life-saving work for this community. This is why I love Wendy. She loves to read, learn new things, practice yoga. She loves meditation and breathwork. So we're like the same person, basically. So I think I just found one of my new favorite people on Earth, folks. I love it. Okay. So now I want to introduce you, everyone that I have on the podcast, it's called Your Favorite You. So I want you to tell us, Wendy, about your favorite version of you. 

Wendy 

Hmm. My favorite version of me. I love this question so much. And because we're specifically talking about the Enneagram, I would say my favorite version of me is a very healthy type eight, which is my type. And I'm sure we'll talk more about the types. But when I am able to show up for myself and the people in my life in a heart forward and authentic way as just a deeply loving and fiercely loyal friend, mom, daughter, wife, it feels like a level of confidence and empowerment from really deeply knowing myself, why I do what I do, who I am, what matters to me. All these things are pieces that the Enneagram has given me. And when I can step more fully into my own power as a woman, my sovereignty, it's just so important. And it also is me on my very best day, which would be my favorite me. 

Melissa 

Yeah, I love that answer. That was such an awesome answer. I did not tell Wendy that she was going to have to answer that way and she nailed it. Okay, so let's jump in. Tell us why you think or why you know the Enneagram is such an amazing tool for getting to know yourself and the people that you interact with. 

Wendy 

Oh man. I've been doing various types of coaching, especially family systems coaching for over a decade, and I kept seeing repeating patterns and roadblocks in people's lives. And I couldn't quite articulate or find the language for what I was seeing. When I came across the Enneagram years and years ago, probably 10 years ago, it explained all of it, every last aspect. And not only did it explain it, I now have the tools as their coach to help my clients, to maybe see their blind spots, to understand themselves and their loved ones better. And even more important to that, to honor and love the really awesome parts of themselves, which for us as women is so hard, you know, and the Enneagram, I've never found a better tool for not only relationships, but self-awareness, and it's so hard to change something if you can't see it. It's impossible. And what's really extra cool about the Enneagram is it's not just about behaviors, because all nine types can be behaving in the same way. It's always about the motivation. So when you get under the surface of the behaviors to the motivation and figure out the why of why we're doing what we're doing, fixing the how's becomes so much easier, you know, and we all, we all want to know about ourselves. Right? Like that's kind of how we all get started in the Enneagram. It's like, what am I? And when you understand yourself at that level, it's both incredibly validating and really confronting. 

Melissa 

Oh yeah, the woman that I learned it from, you've probably heard of her, Suzanne Stabile. 

Wendy 

Oh, I love Suzanne. She's like the godmother of the Enneagram. 

Melissa 

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I loved her teaching. I was actually out in Park City with Sara and a bunch of other coaches. And I was watching Suzanne's videos and I was so into it. And, you know, I'm a type two. So Suzanne teaches eight, nine, one, then two. And I heard my dad's type. He's a nine. Or he was. He passed away 13 years ago, but it helped me understand him so much better. And I was like, oh my goodness. And then I heard my type and I was like, oh, and, you know, Suzanne teaches, I know you know this, to not necessarily take a test to figure out what you are, but to look at all the negative aspects of each type. And when you're like, Oh God, I hope it's not me. That's the one that you know. So, when I heard the two, when I heard the unhealthy side of two, I was like, oh, shit. 

Wendy 

I tell that to my clients. I'm like the one that makes you want to crawl under a rock and die and hope nobody knows this about you. Ding, ding, ding. You found your type. 

Melissa 

Yeah. I'm like, wait, I'm doing, I'm helping things because I want something in return. Like if anyone ever knew that about me, I would be so ashamed. So for those of my, my listeners, a lot of them probably don't know about the Enneagram unless they've heard me, you know, talking about it. So can you briefly tell us about the type so that our left brains can start categorizing ourselves and the people we love? 

Wendy 

Sure. It's a Greek word that just means nine pointed diagram. So that's why it's such an interesting word, but at its core, it is consciousness work, it's shadow work. It uncovers the pieces of us that maybe people that are close to us know and see that we have a hard time seeing in ourselves, it consists of nine types. It's just sort of like nine ways we see the world, nine archetypes, nine worldviews, it kind of each time, it's not saying that there are only nine types of people in the world. There are infinite types of people in the world. And the Enneagram is not putting you in a box saying like, Melissa, you're in the box for type twos, Wendy, you're in the box for type eights. It's showing us the box that we are currently living in and how to get out of it and how to almost transcend out of it. But the nine types are pointing towards a person's core motivations, fears, what makes them feel loved and understood and how they make sense of the world. Cause we all see things very differently and it's never about behavior, like I mentioned before, it's always about the motivation. There's no type that's better than another type. Although as Melissa and I can tell you, when you learn your type, you wish you were any type but that one. It’s very common to not like your type very much, especially as women. But the reason that this happens is because we have a really hard time admiring and acknowledging the good in ourselves. And we're really good at seeing all the negatives. So that's, that's something that I really focus on when I'm coaching, using the Enneagram is yeah, we talk about some of the complicated parts of people's types, but we just really go over and over how incredible they are at that type, like what a gift it is to be that type. I as a type eight, I can look at all the other types and find pieces that I really envy and admire about those types and be like, man, I wish I had access to some of those gifts. So hold it all loosely and with compassion as you're learning your type. That'll make sense. 

Melissa 

Yeah, totally. So good. Yeah. Such a good explanation too. Thank you. 

Wendy 

Yeah. Yeah. So should we jump in a little bit to each of the types? Okay. And there's so much to say about each one, and I'm going to make it as concise as possible. So if we start at type one, type one is called the improver, sometimes called the perfectionist. I prefer the improver because that's really what they do. They take something that's good and they improve upon it. These types are orderly, they're self-disciplined. They can be black and white thinkers. They're incredibly, incredibly critical of themselves. Very, very hard on themselves. They like to make order out of chaos. They're productive, organized. They can be uptight. They have a very strong moral compass. So they can kind of have that black and white rigid thinking at times. Very strong value system. The core fear of a type one is being bad or wrong. Their core motivation is to be good, to have integrity, to be ethical, to be right. I think it's helpful to know a couple famous people of that type, if that's helpful. So type one, some famous people would be like Martha Stewart, Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Love Ruth. Me too. Captain America, Javert from Les Mis, and probably my favorite type one would have to be Atticus Finch from To Kill a Mockingbird. 

Melissa 

Okay. Amazing. Yeah. Is this the type, I think Suzanne said, if you don't have this really negative inner voice, you're not a type one?

Wendy 

Well, we all kind of have that like inner critic like the bully in our brain that’s really hard on ourselves and is judgmental towards other people. Sometimes we all have that. It is ceaseless it is vicious. It just never stops and type ones truly are some of the most ethical good Incredible humans you will ever meet and they still don't feel good enough. I think it would be tough to be a type one but I can tell you if I ever had to have brain surgery I'm shopping around to find a type one brain surgeon because it will be precise and perfect.

Melissa 

Yes. Eye surgery, brain surgery. Yes. Yes. Yes. 

Wendy 

I just love type ones.

Melissa 

Okay. Awesome. Awesome. Tell me about my type type. 

Wendy 

The helper. Oh my gosh. The type twos see the world through their relationships. They are the most interpersonal type. They are loving, warm, thoughtful, so generous, kind, very service oriented. They can be a little needy. They can be overly accommodating. They can sometimes be a little martyr like, look at all the things I do for you and nobody's taking care of me. They can sometimes have a bit of a scorecard in their head like, I've done 27 things for you and you've done zero for me. They can sometimes give love to get love so it can feel transactional, but they are the most giving, the kindest, most sincere compliments that were genuine, not fake, that I have ever received have been from a type two. Everybody needs a two in their life. Their core fear is to be unloved or unwanted. And of course that sounds like something we would all want, but for a type two, this is oxygen for them. It is so critical. Their core motivation is to be loved and wanted for who they are without having to bend over backwards to serve. It's why you give and serve so much is to feel that way. 

Melissa 

Mm-hmm. 

Wendy 

And some famous twos. Oh, they're some of the best people. Mr. Rogers, Dolly Parton, Desmond Tutu, Samwise Gamgee from Lord of the Rings has got to be my favorite type too. I mean, think of that line where he's like, “I can't carry the ring, Mr. Frodo, but I can carry you.” It's so true. I love it. Yeah. Twos are just beautifully, heart forward humans. 

Melissa 

Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. Type threes. 

Wendy 

Type three. This is the achiever. These people are charming, goal oriented, success driven, efficiency masters. They are like the energizer bunny of accomplishing goals of achieving what's important to them. They are workaholics a lot of times, highly energetic, very motivating, very resourceful. They can be image conscious. They can be a bit vain. They are very competitive. They are going to get it done and they are going to look good doing it. This is very type three. Their core fear is failure. Failure is kryptonite for them or being unsuccessful or looking bad. Their core motivation is to feel worthy and valuable without having to perform. So some famous type threes would be Tom Cruise, Oprah, Tony Robbins, Beyonce, Dwayne The Rock Johnson, Scarlett O'Hara from Gone with the Wind. These are all great examples of type threes. 

Melissa 

Okay, amazing. 

Wendy 

Yeah, they're, they're so fun. I love threes. High energy people. 

Melissa 

Yeah fun, okay. 

Wendy 

Type four, my husband's a type four. I have a son that's a type four. My heart is with fours. This is the individualist. They don't just have feelings. They are feelings. They embody them. They build a summer home and live in their emotions. This does not mean they're drama queens. They're just emotionally fearless. The emotions a lot of us don't want to touch and be around, they will sit with you. This is the person you want with you when you are in grief or when you are suffering. They are not going to artificially cheer you up. They are going to hold space for everything. They're creative, they're unique, they're deeply expressive, they're intuitive, very sensitive, they're empathic. They can be a bit moody, a bit angsty, temperamental. Sometimes they are incredibly deep and artistic. Some of our most enduring works of art, literature, music, poetry, the ones that really touch us, I can almost guarantee they're written by a four. 

Melissa 

Yeah, because they put all their feeling into it. And it's right there on the page or the screen. 

Wendy 

They're incredible. They can articulate what a lot of us are feeling, but can't quite put words to. Melancholy is second nature to them. Aesthetics, they're important. Their core fear is being seen as commonplace, ordinary, plain, flawed. Their main motivation is to find their authentic selves and be unique and be significant in that way. So you can, you can tell type four is like, they're going to dress really unusual, really cool vibes. They're, they just have a presence that is interesting, right? So like some famous type fours would be like Johnny Depp, Billie Eilish, Frida Kahlo, Angelina Jolie. If you've seen the kids movie Inside Out, Sadness is a type four. And even though she looks like maybe she's depressed, she's the hero of that film. You know, she makes space for that cute little girl, Riley, to feel sad that she moved away from her friends, you know? So like fours just are incredibly, they get misunderstood a lot, but I just adore them. 

Melissa 

Another four who has admitted on her podcast that she is a four that I absolutely love is Glennon Doyle. 

Wendy 

Oh, one of my favorite podcasts. Yeah. And you can hear it when she speaks, right? Like she can put words into such a gorgeous eloquent. Her books, like she's a phenomenal writer. 

Melissa 

Yeah, yeah. Same. I agree wholeheartedly.

Wendy 

Type five is the investigator. The way the investigator's minds work is just unbelievably cool. These types are, they are objective. They're analytical. They are observant, crazy observant. They would rather observe than participate a lot of times. So they're the ones that are kind of standing back, watching what's happening in a gathering, and they are noticing the things that the rest of us are not paying attention to. They can be very independent. They're self-sufficient. They're very rational, cerebral, kind of up in their head a lot. They can take big, complicated concepts and synthesize and summarize it down into a few bullet points for the rest of us to understand. Brilliant people. They can be a little stingy with their time. They have the lowest people threshold. They need a lot of time alone to recharge. I have a daughter that's a five. We call it her cave time. She needs cave time. That is where they recoup their bandwidth and their energy is being alone. So their core fear is being incompetent, incapable, overwhelmed, or have their space or energy intruded upon. And their main motivation is to be capable and competent. That's what makes them really feel safe. And some famous type fives would be Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Jane Goodall, Bill Gates, Sherlock Holmes. Sherlock Holmes is a great example. Crazy, crazy smart, very observant, sometimes isn't the best with his people skills. It's a very five. Fives are just, I mean, they will ask questions that the rest of us wouldn't think to ask in a million years, like deeply intuitive, smart, existential brains. 

Melissa 

Mm hmm. I love it. Okay. Yeah, they're cool. All right. Tell me about my hubby. He's a six. 

Wendy 

Yes. Okay. Sixes are the loyalists. These are the glue of society. I have decided. That's my diagnosis. They are loyal almost to a fault. Fiercely, fiercely loyal. They will sometimes go down with the sinking ship because they're so loyal. They are prepared for any possible eventuality. They are practical, cautious, hypervigilant. They're very risk-aware, so they can look a little paranoid. They will ask a lot of what-if questions. I've heard them described as chicken little, like, the sky is falling. Oh, no. It's because they're risk-aware and they're responsible. They have a plan B, a plan C. Type sixes were probably the only types not panicking when the pandemic hit. They were like, I've been preparing my whole life for this. It's fine. I have plenty of toilet paper for the whole neighborhood. That would be a type six. 

Melissa 

My hubby was in charge of the COVID pandemic at OSU at our medical center. So yep. 

Wendy 

I can't think of a more perfect person to put in charge of that. But the core fear of a type six is fear itself. It's being unsupported, uncertain, at risk, abandoned. Their main motivation is to have support, security, safety, guidance, whatever that looks like for them. So some famous type sixes would be Ellen DeGeneres, Tom Hanks, Princess Diana, Julia Roberts, Mark Twain. My favorite type six would be Woody from Toy Story. Like think of how loyal that sweet little toy is keeping all the other toys together, you know, and riddled with anxiety. It's a good representation of the six. 

Melissa 

Right. 

Wendy 

Yeah, does that sound like your husband? 

Melissa 

Yes. And he will, he will cop to it too. 

Wendy 

Yeah. Sixes are, they're very group-minded people. They're just responsible for all of us taking care of all the stuff. When we're off doing whatever we're doing, they're holding down the fort. 

Melissa 

So that is hi,, yep, thank goodness for myself. 

Wendy 

Okay. Type seven, a healthy self-aware type seven is pure sunshine. This type is called the enthusiast. They are optimistic, sunny, extroverted, spontaneous. They are adventurous, fun-loving. They have the fastest working mind of all the types. So it's common that they get misdiagnosed with ADHD. Some have it for sure, but not always. It's because their mind is working so fast. It looks a little bit like a pinball. They go from one thought to 10 more thoughts in the space of 10 seconds. They can be easily bored. In fact, boredom is just kryptonite for a seven. They can be impatient, restless, flighty. They are excellent reframers, which is good and bad. They could have just gotten fired from their dream job and all of a sudden it's like, oh, that's fine. I'm going to go find a better job. They don't even let themselves be sad about, so they love their rose colored glasses. They're very self-focused, not selfish, self-focused. They're just like, what do I want to do? What would be fun? Let's do that. They have what the Enneagram calls a half range of emotion when they are not careful. They only want the good half. They don't want to feel anything sad, hard, so they're going to pivot out of it so fast. Their core fear is to be limited, bored, restricted, FOMO, fear missing out, or trapped in emotional pain. Their main motivation is to feel satisfied, fulfilled, and content. Some famous type sevens would be Robin Williams, Jim Carrey, Dick Van Dyke, Katy Perry. My favorite type seven would have to be Captain Jack Sparrow. Think of like, on to the next fun thing, on to the next fun thing. He is completely oblivious to the chaos is following him.

Melissa 

So interesting. I think one of my sons, I think is a type seven. So he hasn’t taken the test, but I think when he was younger, you know, his teachers would always say, it seems like he's not paying attention, you know, in class and that type of thing. But as soon as we ask him a question, like he knows the answer and, you know, his brain was just, you know, he was like talking to himself about something completely different. Yeah. And then like could spit out the answer, like, right. Repeat back what they had said and all that kind of good stuff.

Wendy 

Totally sounds like a seven, like their, their brain is like, it's almost like this squirrel all over the place, but they're crazy smart and they, they just are, they're fast, fast, fast. You know, they're fun. Sevens are blast. Yeah.

Melissa 

I love it. I love it. All right. 

Wendy 

All right. Type eight. That's my type. The type eight is called the protector or the challenger as a type eight. I prefer the protector. Obviously we can challenge when we have to, but our main motivation is to protect ourselves and our people. Female type eights are the rarest type and what's considered the most misunderstood type, which maybe explains why I love the Enneagram so much is because something finally explained me to me. But some things to know about a type eight, they are a very strong type. They're compassionate, protective. They are direct. They are very honest, sometimes too honest. We will say the thing that everyone else is thinking that nobody else is saying. So we get in trouble a lot. It's a very empowering type. They love, we love being cheerleaders for people hate bullies. Like eight's get misstereotyped as bullies because we're such strong personalities. No, no, no. We usually go after the bullies. Like there's nothing I loved more in elementary school than taking down a bully, but eight's are very intense. We're probably the most intense type. Were decisive action oriented, high voltage, full throttle personalities, independent. We could be very powerful leaders. I mean, we have Martin Luther King Jr. on one hand, and then we have Hitler and Stalin on the other. So it's kind of extreme. We can be loud, domineering, angry, rebellious. We have the highest energy of all the types. So without care, and if we're not being careful, we can unintentionally steamroll people. We can come on too strong. We bring a level 10 energy to everything, even if it requires like a level two. So that's one of the blind spots for our type is to just dial it down a little bit. So we're not overwhelming. The main core fear of a type eight is being weak, controlled. Oh my gosh, control. Anyone tries to control me, I'm coming out swinging. So I was a really fun kid to raise. I say that eight's make hard children to raise and fantastic adults. 

Melissa 

Yeah. Oh yeah. For sure. That's amazing. 

Wendy 

Like other fears of ours is being manipulated, being vulnerable, or being at the mercy of injustice. Like, that's tough. Our main motivation is to protect ourselves and others from harm and to avoid being controlled or challenged by other people. Yeah. So some famous... 

Melissa 

I think my cousin Michelle. Michelle, if you're listening, I think you might be a type eight, babe. 

Wendy 

Maybe. She'll be in good company. I love female eights. It's like, I found my people. Yeah. 

Melissa 

Yes. 

Wendy 

Yeah. But like some famous type eight, like I mentioned, Martin Luther King, he's probably one of my favorites. Winston Churchill, Queen Latifah, Serena Williams, Sigourney Weaver, Oscar Schindler from Schindler's List, Sean Connery, Merida from the kids movie Brave. She doesn't want to be controlled. No one decides my fate but me. I was like, oh, I resonated so much with that show. So that's us eights. 

Melissa 

I love it. Okay. Yeah. Last but not least…

Wendy 

Are sweet type nines, the peacemaker. The type nines are considered the most common type. And thank goodness for that. We need these sweet peacemakers in our lives. This type is agreeable. They're steady. They're peaceful. They're patient. They have just a calm Zen energy. They can be very self-forgetting. They are the most stubborn type, which is so interesting when you meet them, because they're just so kind and accommodating. They're very stubborn. They will dig in their heels. They can look very busy, but a lot of times not on the right tasks. They will avoid seeing problems that's right in front of them because it could lead to conflict. The thing that they avoid like the plague is contention, conflict, arguments. They would rather kick that can down the road three miles than to have a hard conversation, which sometimes makes that hard conversation worse because it's been prolonged so long. Yeah, my mom's a type nine and is as kind and loving and just this angel on earth that you will ever meet. And then she's raising this like bull in a china shop type eight daughter. It's like, I'm so sorry, mom. But they can, nines changing of it can feel hard and contentious and like a lot of conflict. So it's more comfortable for them to just like be in the margins than in the middle of things. So the core fear of a type nine is conflict, contention, feeling separate, feeling unimportant. And the main motivation for type nines is to just have inner stability, peace of mind, harmony, some famous type nines, Ronald Reagan, Barack Obama, Abraham Lincoln, Walt Disney, Audrey Hepburn, Carl Jung, Sleeping Beauty, Pumbaa from Lion King. Hey, no worries, man. Akuna Matata. 

Melissa 

Oh my goodness, yeah. 

Wendy 

But what's really interesting about type nines is they think that more than half of our US presidents, regardless of political party have been type nines because of this peacemaker ability, like think of how diverse our nation is and how important it would be for the leader of our country to be able to hold conflicting opinions all at once and find validity in all of those perspectives. Nines can do this better than any other type. 

Melissa 

Yes. Well, unfortunately, we're seeing what happens when we don't have a nine in office. 

Wendy 

Yeah. And I'm a little embarrassed at what type I think he is. It's a horrible representation of this type. 

Melissa 

I can only guess. 

Wendy 

I was like, you can edit that out if that's not… I think he won type eight and I'm just like, damn you, you're making us all look bad. 

Melissa 

I would agree. The challenger. Oh, yes. Let's give him the challenger because I certainly don't want him protecting me. 

Wendy 

Oh no, I don't think he's protecting anyone but himself and maybe a select group of people, right? But that's all of these are like the core types. There are so many aspects of the Enneagram. We won't even have time today to get into subtypes, wings, stress, and growth lines, how it all moves. So this is just like the tip of the iceberg for each type, but maybe your listeners can hear this and think, Oh wow, that one sounds like me sort of. 

Melissa 

What I love to think about the Enneagram, especially, you know, just from my perspective being a two, thinking about when I am healthy, you kind of talked about it a little bit, but you go to different types when you're in stress and when you're not, when you're healthy, and we each have wings that keep us stable and that type of thing. And so I love how you explained at the beginning, like it's not just that I'm a type two. Sometimes when I'm healthy, I'm more like a type four. And sometimes when I'm really stressed out, I'm being more of the type eight and controlling people and all that kind of good stuff. So it just makes so much sense to me. Like you said, it just made me understand myself in such a deeper way. And of course helped me understand my husband in such a deeper way. My parents, the boys, you know, that type of thing. Suzanne said when we were learning about it, you know, don't go in and try to diagnose other people. And I was like, yeah, right, Suzanne. 

Wendy 

It's so tempting though, I even do it and I know better, but I'm like, I usually can nail people. I know what their types are. 

Melissa 

Listen I'm a helper, I need to help people find their type. 

Wendy 

Yes. Yes. Honestly, I have never found a better tool, not just for learning why I am the way I am and why I do what I do, but like learning my husband's type is a type four. I honestly think that when you get married, they give you, they should give you your marriage license and a book on the Enneagram. Like it's like learn because we spent, we've married 30 years and we probably spent 15 of those years having the same stupid arguments about the same things. Right. It's like, I, as an eight, I am a fast moving, get stuff done, like endless energy. And my husband is a type four is really emotionally processing things. He's not a drama queen at all. It's like, he just moves at a slower pace. He takes longer to make decisions. He loves these long tangential flowery stories. And I used to say things like, honey, land the plane, bullet points, not paragraphs. Like what I got stuff to do. I can't sit here for an hour. And I'm realizing that I am minimizing some of the most beautiful things about him that used to just like annoy me. And now I think these are some of the most beautiful endearing things that I just love about you. And even things that I had like judgment or criticism for, I now have empathy and compassion for learning my children's types, my parents, my siblings, our relationships are different and knowing how the different types perceive each other. Like knowing how my mom is a nine would perceive me as an eight makes it so that I can show up and have conversations with her or with other people where I am more aligned. And those are deeper, more fulfilling relationships, because I'm not approaching the world as an eight all the time, right? Like that, the golden rule that we all grew up hearing, you know, treat others how we want to be treated. My opinion, that needs to be thrown in the trash. We need to be treating others how they want to be treated. 

Melissa 

Yes. Oh yes. 

Wendy 

If I treated everyone like a type eight, I would just be like this bull in a china shop. Like I probably wouldn't have a lot of friends. I'd be too much, you know? 

Melissa 

Well, then I think knowing other people's fears, at least for me, I'm like, oh, like that is a wound, a fear that I'm not going to poke at ever. If I can help it, right? So, you know, knowing that my husband's fear is abandonment, like before coaching, before I had marriage coaching and before luckily he also has had coaching, like our fights were exactly the same, the same fight over and over again. We didn't even know what we were fighting about by the end of the fight. And, you know, a lot of times the way that I would deal with the fight is to go and get space from him. And his fear is abandonment. So I go get space and he's freaking out. I'm like, I'm not going anywhere. Like you're stuck with me. But knowing that I need space and knowing that he needs reassurance, like it just has made such a huge difference in the past six months. 

Wendy 

I think if I had to pick the most important life-changing aspect of the Enneagram, it would be the wounding message and the healing message of each type. And if I'm talking about you specifically as a type two, which you sort of touched on, the wounding message for a type two is it's not okay to have your own needs or to be a burden. The healing message for a two is you are wanted and loved period, full stop. And the reason those messages and they're different for each type, but the reason those are so important is when conversations go sideways, when we have arguments, when we are just not feeling close to or aligned with our special people, whether it's our spouse, our kids, our coworkers, family, whatever, it's because we are seeing the world through our wounding message and the way we get back into alignment and close to these people and soften the arguments is to get the other person to feel that healing message. So for me, for instance, my healing message as a type eight is you will not be betrayed. And I think they use a word like betrayal because it's an intense word and we're an intense type. It's not like I'm expecting my husband to cheat on me, but betrayal to an eight feels like dishonesty. It feels like I was counting on you to do something and you didn't do it. It feels like not having my back or supporting or defending me when people are coming at me, all those things feel like betrayal. So Tom and I can be in one of those like rip roaring fights, right? Like the kind you have every few years where you just want to like light each other on fire. You're so angry. And if he stops long enough and maybe connects with me, like puts his hand on my shoulder and just says, babe, this is just an argument. We may not agree here, but this is not betrayal. I will go from a level 10 anger to a level two. And I just feel like this gooey, emotional, soft. He just, what he did is he got me out of my wounding message for an eight it’s you can't be vulnerable and don't trust anyone. Cause I am there. I am that angry. And I am reacting from that wounding message. He got me out of that into my healing message. And all of a sudden I feel close to him again. I'm not angry and I'm willing to have a hard conversation because I know it's now safe. 

Melissa 

Mm hmm. 

Wendy 

And when people know their wounding message and their healing message of their type and their spouses know it, this is your get out of jail free card, and for your husband, his healing messages, you are safe. You were not being abandoned. I am here. I need a minute. I'll be right back. Yeah. It's so, it's such an important aspect. I wish more Enneagram teachers like really spent time on that point because that is the thing that makes it so the misunderstandings go away. People are going to disagree. That doesn't have to be this cataclysmic, horrible, my life is now imploding kind of thing. 

Melissa 

Right, right, right. Yeah, I totally teach my clients that, you know, healthy relationships have rupture and repair. To know how to repair with a simple sentence to your person, or your child, or your best friend, or whomever, your mom, whatever. 

Wendy 

Yeah. Like when you see your kids so super dysregulated, they are squarely in that wounding message, you know, when you can get them into that healing message. And even if they're like rolling their eyes at you and whatever, mom, like it's getting in, right? It's getting in. 

Melissa 

Yeah, I'm so wishing I had met you 10 years ago when the boys were like 13 and 10, so that I could have analyzed my whole family and help us make sense of each other. 

Wendy 

Oh, but don't you feel like you parent completely differently knowing their types?

Melissa 

Oh, yes. Yeah. Totally. I think with coaching too, you know, not even that, but just the idea that, A, I don't have to have all the answers. I can ask for do-overs. I can freely give do-overs to them that we can figure it all out together. It's like, you know, there's not the end of the world ever. 

Wendy 

The Enneagram makes coaching so much more targeted and effective. Like when I know my client's types, the pacing of my coaching is different depending on if they are fast moving type. Like the way I approach it, some of them are very head types. Like it needs to be rational and logical and unemotional. Some of them are heart types and they need to be able to feel their feelings. Some of them need action steps. Like I coach differently depending on their type. In fact, I've talked with other coaches and I'm like, how do you coach without knowing their type? I was like, I have a cheat sheet. You're shooting in the dark. 

Melissa 

I love it. I love it. I love it. OK, so tell us all the different ways that you work with people. 

Wendy 

There are so many different aspects. Usually how I start working with people is I work with the IEQ nine platform. It's integrative Enneagram quotient and the nine for the nine types. To me, that is the gold standard of Enneagram literature, the Enneagram test, it is far and away the most accurate one out there. I don't really ascribe to a lot of the free tests or like the $5 tests. Sometimes they're accurate. Sometimes they're not. I test myself on all of them. I know I'm a really solid eight and sometimes I come up with an eight. Sometimes I don't. IEQ nine is the most accurate, but they can still mistype. So you don't put a hundred percent of your trust in the test. A lot of it is working with the coach. It's reading about the different types. But my first session usually is we go over their test results. I make sure it feels accurate to them. Explain what all of that means because the Enneagram is a big, complex, deep tool. It's not something you can like, yeah, you can't just read an article and understand the whole thing. So it's really, really helpful to work with a coach. So we'll do that. Like our first couple of sessions is all about, it's more me being an educator rather than a coach. And then if they choose, we do sessions as far as coaching, where I teach them how to use their type in whatever situations they want coaching on and where their type might be a bit of a roadblock for what they're trying to work on and how to kind of transcend out of that and to use the gifts of their type and their growth line and even their stress line to really achieve the goals that they have for coaching. 

Melissa 

Okay, I love that. That's so fun. It's so fun. 

Wendy 

It's so fun. We have a lot, we have a lot of fun. We have a lot of laughs, some tears, but mostly we're laughing because we're just, we're all ridiculous and we're all amazing. 

Melissa 

Yeah. Right. Isn't that the truth? Okay. I can't let you go without speaking, you know, as a former pediatrician and a human who loves people who are LGBTQIA+. And I, I'm thinking we could probably do an entire second episode on your advocacy. So if you're willing to do that, I'd love to have you come back and just talk about that. So you can be brief now, but tell those of us who want to support and help and advocate ourselves, you know, what is one thing that we can do to help advocate for this amazing group of people in your experience? 

Wendy 

Oh my gosh, that's such a good question. And I have 5,000 things in my brain. There's so many ways to do it depending on how out there you want to be.

Melissa 

Depending on your type, probably. 

Wendy 

Right, right. Depending on your type, as an eight, I'm like, I'm going to be out there. I'm going to be doing all the things. Like I've co-founded nonprofits. I've sat on boards of nonprofits. My whole heart is for this community. And it can be something truly as simple as a rainbow, a bumper sticker on your car. I wear a rainbow ring every single day. And it is an excellent conversation starter. It could be something like a bumper sticker on your car or earrings or just something that signals that you are a safe person because I can tell you from experience and from my children and from so many people I know, they are looking for allies. And all it takes is you don't even have to say a word. If they just see a bumper sticker, or if they see a rainbow tie tack or earrings or something, it makes them feel safer. I can tell you driving around my neighborhood, when I would see a rainbow flag, I was like, that house is safe for my children. And if I would see something else, like a Trump sign, I'd be like, that house is not safe for my family. You know, it's, it could just be little signals like that. If people have the means and are interested in donating financially, that is incredibly important. There are so many organizations depending on what feels important to you. There's youth organizations, there's educational organizations. Some of my favorites are Mama Dragons. There's, gosh, there's so many. HRC is a great one. The Trevor Project's fantastic. The Trevor Project has a suicide hotline. And that's near and dear to my heart as well, because I'm trained in suicide prevention, because that was something that some of my children really struggled with. They do, they have a hotline that people can volunteer. They will train you to be on the hotline. That's fantastic. You can donate to them. They have seen a 1200% increase in these hotline phone calls in the past, what, since January, whenever the inauguration was. You know, I mean, it's this, this community, especially the trans community is just getting hammered, hammered. So in any way, it doesn't have to be a rainbow. It could be like a trans pin or there's social media posts are a big deal. You know, but be prepared that you'll get pushed back probably. You'll have people be unkind about it. And it's still worth it. These kids need it. 

Melissa 

Whenever I see something like that, I think, well, thank you for showing me who you are. 

Wendy 

Yeah. And I'm just like, well, it's nice when the trash takes itself out. That's a very eight thing to say. And I'm just like, no, I don't have to waste any time with you anymore. You are not safe for my children or myself. 

Melissa 

Oh my goodness, Wendy. I love it. Okay. Since my listeners are of course going to want to learn more about you, how can they find you? Where do you hang out? Tell us all your places. 

Wendy 

Uh, well, my website is WendyMontgomery.com. I spend a lot of time on Instagram. I am Wendy Mont coach on that. And then I'm on Facebook as well under Wendy Montgomery coaching kind of all the different social media platforms. 

Melissa 

Yeah. Amazing. Okay. Thank you so much for being here. Such a joy to be on the podcast with you. 

Wendy

Absolutely. It was such a treat. Thank you for having me 

Melissa

And like I said, this will not be the last we'll be hearing from you. I definitely want to have you come back on and talk more about the advocacy. My favorite me is definitely an advocate for people who have less privilege than me.

Wendy 

Absolutely. I love you already. Oh my goodness. You're my kind of people. 

Melissa 

OK, folks, until next time, we'll see you next week. 

Hey, hold up. Before I let you go today, I've got something that might just change your life if you let it. And no, that's not an April Fool's joke, even though that's exactly when this is happening. 

Mark your calendar for April 1st. Yes, April Fool's Day, because the universe has a sense of humor and so do I. I'm hosting a workshop called Figure Out What You Want, the five steps high achievers need to go from frustration to ease. And trust me, the only fool you'll be is if you miss it.

For all of you overachievers who excel at everything except figuring out what the hell you actually want, this one is for you. You know who you are, brilliant at solving everyone else's problems but drawing a complete blank when it comes to your own desires.

In this webinar, I'll be sharing why you're not broken for not knowing what you want. Spoiler, it's by design, not by accident. My simple five step process that's helped so many of my clients get unstuck. How to stop polling the audience every time you need to make a decision. And why the thought “I'll figure it out on my own,” might be the biggest lie you're telling yourself. You'll walk away with actual tools, not just inspirational fluff that fades by tomorrow.

And for those ready to do the real work, I'll share my details about my Your Favorite You Group coaching program kicking off April 23rd. To register, just head to MelissaParsonsCoaching.com/workshop. Spots are filling up faster than your Amazon cart during a stress shopping episode. Ask me how I know.

So if you're tired of not knowing what you want or worse, knowing but not doing anything about it, this is your sign. Come hang out with me on April Fool's Day and let's make it no joke that you start prioritizing yourself. Until next week, remember, everyone else has an opinion about your life, but only one opinion actually matters: yours.